Building a $50M+ Zero Alcohol Global Craft Beer Brand

imagine this

an Australian beer brand worth over $50 million and it's non alcoholic

sounds ridiculous right

but Heaps Normal made it real

with Robbie Williams on the investor list and millions of cans sold

this brand is leading up the non alcoholic beer movement

in this episode Andy co founder of Heaps Normal

breaks down building a consumer product in the midst of the pandemic

the power of community and branding

and building consumer products with impact baked in from day one

hi I'm Andy Miller

co founder of Heaps Normal and this is founders in motion

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okay let's get into it

you've been on such an incredible journey in the last couple years

really redefining a category

and bringing that category over from Australia

now to the rest of the world

but let's go all the way back to the very beginning

so you're at Young Hendry's

a super popular craft beer company

and then you decide to co found a non alcoholic beer brand

so what was the moment

where you realized that there was a gap for this in the market

it was a few years after leaving Young Henry's actually

and a friend of mine gave me a call

Pete Brennan actually and um

he was really keen to do something in

in non alcoholic beer um

but hadn't worked in that area before

and as soon as he said it

I just thought it was such a great idea

and something that I could see a lot of personal relevance in

I'd never had you know

what I thought would was a problem with alcohol

but I just realized that there was an opportunity for people who

didn't necessarily identify with being sober

to have a product like this

to be able to cut back um

or take a night off or or whatever

I love that and I think I very much personally resonate in the sense

um alcohol is synonymous to social connections

and sometimes you want the benefit of the social connection

but not so much the after effect of alcohol in your system

so you and your co founders come from very different worlds

I'm so curious

like within kind of the first few months or weeks of working together

did you guys butt heads and how did you think about um

bringing those differences to be complementary

rather than against each other

I think we worked pretty well together in those early days

um you know

we were all much more focused on

you know this

the exciting you know

challenge to be solved around bringing

a really interesting brand and high quality um

beer to the non alc category

um you know

which you know

we didn't really feel like had been truly solved

um you know

before Heaps Normal came along

and you launch Heaps Normal during the thick of the pandemic

so I think there was a study where during lockdown

people actually drank more alcohol than usual

so what was going through your head around the time

in terms of launching around Covid

like was it scared

excited or kind of a mix of both

oh we were shitting ourselves hahaha

I think one of the journalists we spoke to summed it up really well

um

he said you know

you're launching a summer beer style in the middle of winter

with an unknown brand and it's non alcoholic

um I love that

so uh

and it was in the middle of the pandemic obviously

so yeah it was a really challenging time

I think to be doing what we were doing

but I think in the end it really worked in our favour

um I think a lot of us in

you know the first round of lockdowns

were

really excited by the freedom to be able to do whatever we wanted

work from home and

you know um

every day was a drinking day for some

and then by you know

lockdown too I think we realized that

you know there was a

a limit to that and a lot of people started to look for

you know options to

to still kind of enjoy the end of their day

um but I think a lot of people realize that um

they couldn't consume as much alcohol

you know when

you know a lot of us couldn't consume as much alcohol

when we were locked up at home

in the same four walls every day

yeah as

as you can when you're you know

out and socializing um

it just wasn't wasn't great for mental health

so I think that caused a lot of people too

reconsider their drinking habits um

around lockdown No. 2

but I think people reconsidered a lot of habits in that time

so it wasn't just drinking

um and we were

I think right place

right time yeah

um turning misfortune into fortune right

yeah it's tough to talk about that fate

that period um

you know as a good

as a good period but um

was definitely a silver lining

I think for

for our business to be an option for people

um that was there when

when they needed it so

the other side of Covid too

is I would imagine there's a lot of supply chain issues

like you can't ship products like normal

maybe delays in factories breweries

how did you handle dealing with the logistical challenges of lockdown

we didn't have too many challenges

actually because brewing was considered an essential service

oh great

so that that was

that definitely worked in our favour

we built the business really organically

um you know

we got we became a national business literally

by walking you know

samples up to our local post office

um you know

each day

and posting them off to different customers around the country

and then calling them again in

two or three weeks later to see if they'd tried the beer and um

and whether they liked it or not and wanted to place an order

so there were definitely ways that we had to work around um

you know that

those restrictions at that time

yeah but you made it work

and I mean yeah

I think it's like now you look back into those days you're

you think very fondly of like

shipping out those first few orders

and actually having that very close customer connection

that's always like very just very lovely

and a validation of what you were dreaming of or working on

yeah I

I still remember all of those customers um

and the you know

the relationships that we built directly with them

um you know

most of them are still ordering from us

you know five years later

so no way um

it's really nice and that's really special for me

um I always make a point of um

dropping in and saying good day to them when I'm in the same city

yeah one of my favourite phrases from you

on one of the articles that you did was

those who want to change the world

need to throw a better party than those who are destroying it

so how do you think that philosophy has

shaped the way that you think of heaps normal

from day one yeah

we've always um

I should attribute that quote um

back to uh Louisa

I think it's Louisa um

from Toast Ale in the UK uh

she she was the person that said that

and it just hit home so well for me

and summed up so well what we're trying to do with heaps normal um

that we we borrowed that quote from her um

but creative licenses you know yeah

yeah that's right

um

but I think it what we're trying to do is throw a better party

we always have been so it was almost putting words to

you know what we were already doing at Heaps Normal um

which is why the the quote hit home so well uh

and just not preaching to people

I think yeah

it's so easy to focus when you're trying to change something

you're trying to affect a change

it's very easy to focus on all of the statistics and the um

doom and gloom that is created by whatever

you know uh

old behaviour you're trying to change

um you know

could be climate change it could be um

anything it's very

there's a lot of it's easy to focus on the negative

yeah but I think

you know most people respond better to

making them feel excited about the change

rather than focusing on all the negative impacts of not changing yeah

100% and then a lot about consumer type products

it's not just the actual product itself

it's about creating the lifestyle and the brand associated to it

on those first few early days

how did you think about crafting what Heaps Normal was gonna look

feel and approach people like

yeah first and foremost we wanted it to look like a beer yeah

um

most of the non alcohol and you know still to this day a lot of them

uh just you know scream 0 0 on the can and it's you know

it's like holding a beacon

if you're standing at a party or something like that

so one of the objectives for us was to change that conversation

at parties where

you know you had to answer the question

why are you not drinking multiple times a night

that informed the way we designed the can and the brand to

you know what 1 be really fun and be a fun beer brand first

and non ALC as just a feature

even though where we only make non alcoholic beers

we never wanted to be screaming non alc ah

we just wanted to create a fun beer brand that

stood for all of the things that we think are too good to be wasted um

which is you know things like live music creativity

the arts um you know great food

drink and um

and friends and so those are the things that we've sort of that have

that have shaped the brand that we've built

so I'm not a big beer drinker

but I drink Heaps Normal

that's amazing yeah

that's amazing that's even bigger comment

that you drink it and you're not a beer drinker

I'm really not a beer drinker

that's true because normal beer gets me very bloated

or it just isn't a good feeling

yeah I can understand that

so non alcoholic brand before you guys have existed before

and we've talked about it not being super widely adopted

so what made you think in terms of like

market timing or sentiment from other brands

that people were ready for this new type of non alcoholic beer

brand to be in the market

we were really building a product for ourselves

and we were hoping that there were other people out there that were

were like us you know

we're looking for something like what we were looking for

which was just a really a great tasting

thoughtfully produced beer that

you know wasn't preaching sobriety

we didn't feel like that had really kind of been done the way that

it spoke to us the way that we wanted to see it

and I should give kudos to

to Soba um

Brewing up in

in Queensland who were one of the early movers in Australia

um and they created some really fantastic um

you know native ingredient

um beers that were really interesting

um but we thought that there was an opportunity to create a more um

accessible you know

craft beer style yeah

that satisfied the tastes of

you know a broader range of

or a different different group of consumers in Australia

we created something that we would enjoy first uh

first and foremost yeah

so what did the first iteration taste like

it was pretty similar to what you taste in a really

an XPA can these days it was the first

you nailed it from the gecko

wow not

not um

not exactly but um

you know Benny

um my business partner and co founder

he brewed the first versions of the XPA in his kitchen using

you know old long neck beer bottles and a domestic kettle

so it was very low fi and

there wasn't really the equipment there to be able to

get it completely non ALC

so the first few versions that we tried were about 1%

and they tasted good and that was really exciting

but it still required a bit of imagination

in terms of the final product

and what it could could taste like

yeah so then we had to

we really had to take a leap of faith

and spend some money to take it to a

a commercial sized brewery and um

see how that recipe scaled up

I've heard stories of like the first iteration being horrible

um so you guys are definitely nailing it from the get go

and then this is always kind

of my favorite story to hear from founders

but how did you land your first like 100 customers

yeah I touched on it earlier um

when I was talking about um

you know walking up to the post office we

we literally built it you know

one customer at a time we would call um

you know fortunately

um you know

during lockdowns fortunately during lockdowns

there were

a lot of customers were open to chatting to suppliers on the phone

where they weren't before

so we would sit in our living rooms and call the best bars

and restaurants and bottle shops in the country

have a chat to them um

tell them what we were doing

and then you know

I would walk up to the post office at the end of the day

and wrap these you know

wrap a couple of cans in newspaper

put them in a box with a handwritten postcard and a few stickers

and ship it off and then um

a couple of weeks later follow up again

on the phone

and have a chat to them about what they thought of the beer we

we grew we grew our first 200 customers um

just doing that who knew Covid

you know maybe it is a fortunate time for you guys

and then when you think about something like pricing

um you're kind of creating a premium product in the category

trying to redefine what the stigma could be like

how did you think about like the pricing positioning behind it

we always like the beer itself

the taste we wanted all

all aspects of the beer to be accessible

we've tried to keep our pricing accessible as well

but like you said it is also a premium product

so it costs a lot to produce and the margins in beer are not very high

um so there's not a lot of room to move there

yeah it's also a scale game

like the economy is a scale and be aware

you know the money is made um

so we can't compete with the

the bigger bigger brewers on price

and we've never really tried to

to do that when as we've scaled

we've also kind of taken those opportunities to either hold the price

or even sometimes reduce the price

to pass on those economies of scale to our consumers

and make sure that you know

it is an accessible product for as many people as

as possible yeah

I I really love the mission and when I think about Mission 2

like heaps normal is a B Corp company

which is um

really amazing can you talk a bit more about the decision to build um

around kind of the social and environmental impact

even from the very beginning

yeah we really believe that business

all business should be a force for good businesses should be

you know

should be giving back to the consumers that they're um

you know

drawing value from and the communities that they're drawing value from

and we believe that that should be normal

not something that is um you know celebrated as unique yeah

so that that's part of the reason why we don't you know

proactively talk too much about that

but it's something that's really important to us

and we built the business from the beginning

um with B Corp in mind yeah

once the mandatory two year period um

ticked over that you need to be trading before you can be a B Corp

we started that process immediately to to be certified

the strange and kind of funny in hindsight

challenge that we had in that period was

that we were growing so quickly

we kept the goal post for becoming a B Corp kept changing for us

so we would go back to be certified after changing

you know tweaking a few things yeah

and then the threshold that we needed to meet had moved again

so we'd have to kind of go away and you know

write another policy

or I'll do some more research and come back with answers on a

different entirely

but it was a really great process for us to go through

and I think it's made us a better business

and then it's the kind of process

I think that is relevant for all businesses

even if you don't become a B Corp certified business

I think it's a really great reference point

for just um

being a good business that is considering your impact across all areas

yeah and it's really not about the certification right

it's about the practice and understanding at what scale

what type of practice should you be really aiming for

um it

it's it's a good benchmark to have yeah

I mean you mentioned like the

the scale so the team has grown quite a lot

how do you think about building a culture that everyone's really

excited to work with yeah

we started thinking about that

just by thinking about

both the best and worst experiences that we'd had

um in our careers working for different people

different businesses and trying to

you know we literally just sat down and

and built in all of these different um

ways of working or employee benefits we

you know appreciated um

in other businesses and and that

you know we would have liked to have had

we were fortunate to be able to start the business as

you know remote first

um we were kind of forced to do that

um during lockdowns

so that also helped us establish the business in a different way

without some of the constraints

perceived constraints that I think other businesses have around

you know um

needing to be in a physical office

yeah I think looking

looking for the ways that we can bring our

kind of

team members along for the journey that we're on as a business

be really transparent about where the business is at with

we've always shared really openly with our team what the

what the business is going through some of the challenges and

and of course the the wins as well

maybe sometimes too transparent

um

never such a thing ha ha ha yeah

helps people kind of empathize with um

what we're going through and really kind of get on board

which is what we need as a small team

and a small business in a really competitive category

so I would say

you're kind of a branding expert when it comes to consumer product

goods so if someone were to start a consumer product company in 2025

how would you advise them in terms of thinking about the brand

like what to focus on first

hmm that's

it's a good question I think it's a really um

involved process um

you know regardless

but I think regardless of the category you're in yeah

not following the same kind of codes that everyone else has

in your category I think looking for a way to stand out

um might

might sound obvious

but I think not a lot of businesses go to the trouble of

going against the grain and creating something that is

you know quite that is different in their in their category

and I think again it

it really depends on the um

the category

but I think there's more opportunity to have fun with it than

than most people think

I think there's there's a fear around

you know creating a brand that is out there or fun or different

particularly if you're in a category that takes itself quite seriously

but I think I'm a big believer in

in creating brands that you know yeah

that are really fun and are willing to take risks um

when you say that the first thing that comes to mind is like

I love liquid death

and the way they redefined the idea of just something so simple as

bottles of water um

with also kind of a social element towards the fact that it's can

so it's more recyclable more environmentally friendly yeah

they've done a great job I think another example that we

you know really look up to is um

is who gives a crap I think they did a similar thing

category that was also really safe and dominated by

you know bigger

much bigger companies yeah

they came up with a a name and a brand and a

you know a kind of a feeling that yeah

made people talk about toilet paper again

you know which isn't something that had

was really kind of a an emotional purchase for most people

but yeah and liquid death more recently has been a um

they've done such a great job of doing

you know a similar thing to

you know bottled water

which was um yeah

the same kind of a pretty boring category

yeah ha ha

so it's been such a wild journey for you and the Heath's normal team

um you've built a brand that's more than a product

it's a community so

what's been the most

surprising thing you've Learned about your customers

and the whole mindful drinking movement

we were

really blown away to learn that Heaps Normal was the best selling beer

out of all beers um

at some of um

our favourite bars in Sydney and Melbourne a couple of years ago

and this is inclusive of alcoholic and non alcoholic

yeah wow

um so that's something that just blew us away

um and it was a real signal

I think it was this wasn't just a passing trend

I think the other

it's not so much um

a consumer story but

you know seeing heaps normal show up in um

really kind of um

interesting kind of cultural um

media spaces cultural commentators and

and you know

comedians and musicians um

channels like the Potato Advocate

you know referencing it um

in some of their content is just yeah

really exciting for us

it sort of says that we're kind of doing what we set out to do

which was to influence culture

yeah yeah

that must have been a crazy moment

finding out that you're selling even more than actual alcoholic beer

and it really underscores the movement as well

in Australia towards mindful drinking

yeah drinking culture has really changed dramatically in Australia

in the last five years you know

five years ago when it was weird to um

not to drink um

to be really Frank

and now I feel like it's weird to ask someone why they're not drinking

and so that shift has happened

happened in such a short space of time really um

and so I'm really excited to see

you know where we go from here um

I don't think you know

people are gonna stop drinking anytime soon and I don't think that's

that's our goal

but I think people really are considering more deliberately

you know their um

choices around um

alcohol and other things as well yeah

so speaking of what's ahead

so you're making a big push internationally

yeah talk me through how kind of the US expansion has been going

uh the US is a really exciting place for us um

we've been um

distributed in California for the last 12 months yeah

we're really we're really focused on Northern California um

the US is such a huge market

and I think a lot of people get stars in their eyes when they

they consider entering the US and um

go a little bit too hard um

too quickly so we're

we're trying to learn from um

some of those mistakes um

and you know

from the advice of other others that have come before us

but it's it's a really exciting um

market for us

and I think the geographic focus that we've had has allowed us

to go really deep um

culturally in that market in California

in the Bay Area and Northern California and Oakland

you know as an example

partnered with um

the Mosswood Meltdown Music Festival over there

which is such a

amazing community based and community run music festival

but with some really amazing um

artists it was headlined by devo

uh this year

so um

that was really fun to be a part of um

and I think really start helped to start to uh

ingrain heaps normal with the local Auckland community over there

that's really awesome um

and then Robbie Williams too

yeah um

yeah Robbie

Robbie's a fan hahaha

love that yes

and then finally

kind of throughout this whole journey that you've been on

that you will be on in the next few years

what's been the most valuable lesson you Learned as a founder

something that you wish someone had told you earlier

this is a tough one so many

ha ha ha

the the thing the

the advice that I feel like I've

I would give and then that I have Learned

you know

um through my own experience is start before you're ready

start before you feel like you're ready

most of the time you've got what you need you

but you know a long time before you feel a

you feel 100% ready um

I think it's really

it can be difficult to kind of know when the right time is to pull

the trigger on

um on just diving in and starting um

but I feel like starting definitely starting before you're ready

and I think the earlier the better to be honest

I think that just starting opens up so many possibilities

that you may not have even considered um

you know when you're in the planning phases

and trying to kind of line everything up and get

get ready to go you know

start mate for us was such a huge eye opener and um

really kind of stretched our ambitions and and um

you know built some really great um

practices into the way that we work

and something that they talk about is

you know this asynchronous bet of just starting something and doing it

where even if you fail if

if you failed to do what you set out to do

you will have uncovered all of these other potential pathways

along the way um yeah

that you may not have been able to imagine um

before before starting yeah

everyone is always looking for that perfect moment to start

but there is never a perfect moment to start anything

the perfect moment is now yeah

the perfect moment is probably yesterday yeah

I think you're right um

and yeah I

I do think it's also um

I I do think starting a company is

there are more upsides and downsides than people think because really

if it fails if it doesn't really go anywhere

you learn so much about yourself

learn so much about who you are in a business context

and so many of the lessons like talking with manufacturers

distributors

talking to customers getting those first early believers

that you can leverage in any roles that

if you ever want to go back to like a typical corporate job

but yeah so

the way that we love to end these conversations is

we like to play a little bit of game called

and because it's Heath normal

so I really like this name um

so the segment is called normal or not normal

and I'm going to throw out a few scenarios

and you can tell me if they're normal or they're not okay

pineapple on pizza normal

wearing socks with sandals normal in Canberra

replying to a work email at ten PM uh

normal I think work when you when work when you're on hmm

work when you feel like it yeah yeah

having a heaps normal at a 9:00am meeting

why not

and finally would you rather have to give up music

or beer for the rest of your life

uh I feel like

that's the toughest question

but I think that I would say

I'd give up music only because I feel like I could make

enough music to entertain myself

at least and I can make better music than I can beer I'm not a Brewer

that's so ironic because you run a beer brand

that is the most ironic that's Benny's job

he's he's the professional Brewer

I work on the brand he brings the beer

and that's a good match yeah

I mean it's all about co founder synergies

that's right yeah yeah

okay Annie

this has been a really fantastic conversation

I feel like I Learned so much about branding

about kind of putting yourself out there before you're ready

and thinking about how you can use opportunities like

that seems like a misfortune

like covid to actually accelerate your brand

hundred percent thanks so much for your time

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