He Turned Falling Socks into an Eight Figure Global Brand

why don't we just make better socks rex

and I were like just second doubting ourselves

sometimes I go on Reddit and then just go like hey

have you heard of Paire

no one ever bothered redeveloping materials in the apparel industry

and that's where we come in and do things a bit differently

I were to go back in time

I might not want to know what are the challenges ahead

imagine starting a fashion brand with the least sexy product socks

Nathan Yun was doing covid walks when his ankle socks kept slipping

and he thought there must be a better way

four years later Paire hits an eight figure run rate

went viral on Shark Tank

and proved that boring products can build iconic brands

hi I'm Nathan Yun

the co founder of Paire and this is founders in motion

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okay let's get back to the video super quickly

super quickly what is pair and what's your one line mission statement

hey uses material science to create clothes that are comfortable

functional and sustainable

so starting an apparel brand is daunting

um and it's actually super funny cause I used to have a clothing brand

so it was very painful um

blasting all the way back to 4 years ago

you guys kicked it off with socks

literally the least interesting item in fashion so why socks

um it was actually 5 years ago and it was in the middle of Covid

I was doing those covid walks

I don't know if you remember

but you were allowed to do 1 hour walk a day during lockdown

and I'm not usually a walker

I don't like to walk around

but when it was covid I walk every day

I took every hour that I get

and at the time I was thinking about business ideas

so I was listening to a lot of business podcasts

and while I was listening to those podcasts and doing my daily walks

my socks will keep fall off my heels

uh cause I'm a millennial so I wear ankle socks hahaha

and they just kept falling off to a point that I was like

this is a huge problem for me

it's very annoying I have to pull up my socks like 5 times in an hour

why don't we just make better socks

like I was always passionate in sustainable fashion

um my best friend Rex is in textile

so he's a specialist in materials

I had this idea of creating a apparel brand

where we can fight fast fashion

uh with better ethical and sustainable products

so that if people want to buy the product

they would already be doing good for the planet

we needed to prove the model with one very simple product

and that's why sock became a natural option

as I said you know

it was reminding me every time when it slips off that

you know there's a huge problem here

um 2

it is a good stepping stone into the whole apparel industry

because it's a very low cost item

uh

it's a very overlooked product

so call me a millennial

but I also wear ankle socks so I completely relate

and even though I didn't do the covid walks

I did the Covid runs

that also exacerbated the whole

like ankle socks falling down type of dynamic

and I remember my shoes used to pinch me so much at the back

so before that first launch

was there anything you guys did to test

if people wanted the apparel concept

you were scheffing up and the initial kind of socks

proof of concept

I would say during the process of developing our first product

we did ask around

talk to people and we did send some prototypes to friends

and that was our first round of survey

good or was it negative like was it mixed

it was overwhelmingly good that we didn't

really trust it because friends would always say good things

you know and family would always say oh

this is awesome we love it

yeah the market definitely needs this

but you get that every time when someone starts a business

and your friends and family are always so supportive

I guess like unpick that how do you figure out like real validation

it has to come from strangers

we did run several surveys few months after we launched

and the questions kind of range from

you know website experience to product experience of course

and also future product suggestions etcetera

and that was overall very positive as well

so that I I will say probably three to six months into starting Paire

selling to strangers and doing those surveys

that's when we had the real confidence to start scaling this

people who are in business and you know

trying to start a business for founders

I think it's very very important to be brutally honest

okay so um

talk me through the playbook of getting your first hundred customers

I would say in the very early days

if you're talking about the first very 100

it is still mostly friends and family uh

I think no founders can kind of bypass that

if you're a consumer facing uh

friends and family are usually your best first customers

you know them you

you have the direct line you can just text them and say hey

do you wanna try this I'll give you a discount

um I would say out of the first 100

probably half of them were friends or friends of friends um

and it's very very common

other than that

we did a bit of meta ads targeting at the very beginning

it was extremely expensive

it wasn't worth it we lost so much money burning um

just to acquire a few customers

so it wasn't that great

when we first started Paire within the first month it was pretty quiet

you know you only have so many friends metal was super expensive

we weren't getting enough sales and racks

and I were like just second doubting ourselves

so we decided to print like thousands of postcards

and we just walk down the streets of Melbourne

and we just like go one by one and put in those postcards about us

and we actually got a lot of sales from those uh

I'm sure some customers might still remember that they were like

oh I got you from the postcards

oh my god early days

yeah

we definitely tried every possible

channel that we can find to just sell to the first 100

and hopefully it builds momentum after that

I study a lot of kind of consumer products um

for work

but also cause I'm just a nerd and no one's playbook looks the same

and what works for someone really doesn't work for other

like I think there's like a brand marketing strategy fit

and also a founder marketing strategy fit

but yeah I feel like the early days is about like

those fun little do things that don't scale

um small things to make people remember you

um and if I did receive a postcard like that

I'll be so happy I'll keep it

I'll be like oh my God

like look at these guys like

and I think we were being very genuine with the postcard

we were like hey

we are your neighbours cause we lived in Brighton at the time

and we were just doing the streets of Brighton

and then we were like hey

we're just down the block

we're your neighbors we just started this little thing

would you like to try here's a discount code

and it yeah

it did it did pretty good

and I remember seeing reviews like two years later saying that oh

I actually got the founder's postcard in the beginning

that's when I found out about the brand

um and they would order

uh through the postcard and we would deliver within 10 minutes

cause we are cause we are literally down the street

and then they were like wow

we've never seen delivery this fast in Australia

in Australia as well so yeah

we see the order pop up

and that will probably be the only order for the whole day

and we're like oh

we'll just pack it and bring it

down we save on shipping as well

wait I love that

if you were to start a brand today

what would you do to unlock those first hundred sales

or maybe like the 50 after the friends and family

I will still try every possible thing I can yeah

everything like flyers postcards

I still I still like to try some of those traditional scrappy

non scalable ways

first 100 is so important

cause that's your first initial feedback on your product

yeah it's not about scalability at this stage

it's about getting meaningful feedback from strangers

so I will do anything to sell to 100 people and you know

I will walk down the streets talk to people

I'll go in I'll knock on doors

try to make a wholesale deal

um I will go online

I will post on forums

I will like I think I remember I actually I shouldn't expose this

but sometimes I go on Reddit and then just go like

for a minute and then just go like

hey have you heard of Paire

oh hundred percent people do that yeah

and I think that just means you know

I would try every possible thing to get the name out

and to get the product out

and just to sell so I don't think I would try one or two things

I would try everything that I can think of

power of Facebook groups and Reddit posts

people are sleeping on it

and now the internet is just it's so much more than five years ago

like you could create TikTok and Instagram reels

you could post on X or threats

there's just so many so many more ways to try even yeah

yeah hundred percent okay

so your socks became famous for all the nerdy little details

so no toe seems 90 degrees heel arc support

in a crowded space like apparel

how do you know what's worth

over engineering

versus just shipping something and seeing if it sticks

we realized that most brands at the time were doing fancy prints um

very colorful very cute uh

and they were selling at 20 bucks with very cheap materials

but the prints sell and it's fine

it's a fashion statement right

and we knew that if we were to stand out

we can't do the same cause you know

there's you can only have so many prints in the world um

so we we made a conscious decision that we want to go down this very

craftsmanship technical

nerdy path to make the best socks in the world

but the design is so basic

it's just extremely comfortable

and that's all we care about is comfort um

so it was a conscious decision to sit in that place uh

within that market and it

it was gonna be our point of difference really

all the all the nerdy details

all the over engineering that was gonna be our selling point

that was gonna be our point of difference

within the whole apparel industry

in in the younger generations

good to know good to know

so on the manufacturing side

it is always difficult but on top of that

you engineer your own fabric

so walk us through what the manufacturing journey actually looked like

and what tips do you have for founders

trying to find the right partners

Paire takes product development very seriously

unlike most other DTC or I guess consumer brands uh

we don't just work with the manufacturing

factory to create the products

we actually start from the very materials itself

like we start from the yarn of this T-shirt

and then we weave those yarns into a piece of fabric

and then we send that fabric to a clothing factory to make the

the final garment um

that means the process is a lot longer than a traditional

product development process

and the reason why we insist on doing this even after five years is

the whole idea of Paire is to create meaningful and purposeful

materials for the right product

for the right category um

for example like let's take socks as an example

what is the best material for socks

I don't think many people have ever asked that question

before Paire came along it's always been oh cotton

we've used cotton forever

let's just use cotton for socks oh

we use polyester let's use polyester or wool

you know it's just all the standard materials that you would hear

but apparently we were like

are those actually the best materials for socks

because your feet sweats the most

most people have smelly feet after two or three days

if they wear the same pair

and it's completely normal

but can we stop that and how do we do that

so we start from a problem of what that category needs

our socks are next to skin

and the reason why we use wool and cotton

is because wool is antibacterial

it's insulating while cotton is moisture absorbent

that means when you wear a Paire sock

your feet stays dry the whole day and they don't smell for days

and that became a selling point because

you know

no one ever bothered redeveloping materials in the apparel industry

and that's where we come in and do things a bit differently

apparel development is the most important thing that Paire does

it's really interesting to

go above and beyond for a category that is overlooked

and then on that side too

like what tips do you have for founders

that are navigating the manufacturing process

maybe even for the first time

I would say try to work with the makers directly

if it is a consumer product

uh I feel like middleman agencies are definitely

you know history

it doesn't make sense anymore

it will bring up your cost way too much

try to go to a different country

where they might manufacture your product

whether it's China Vietnam

India Bangladesh

like whatever product you're making

try to find the right place and actually visit that place

actually talk to those makers and visit their visit their factories

you know

know the people know the know the workers behind your products

it actually helps uh

it puts you in a good place for negotiation as well

for example uh

you the more you learn about them

the the more you know

the more leverage you have in your negotiation process

and it's also very important to know your products in and out

from the materials right

so I'll say do the hard work when it comes to sourcing

um there's no shortcut with sourcing

take it very very seriously

it is the most important thing when you start a business on that

so say if like someone's starting at blank

like no industry experience

no understanding of who's even the makers across the entire world

like how do you get started

get those Rolodex going

you can talk to factories through some of these platforms like Alibaba

but you can actually kind of steer the conversation in a way that hey

I wanna come and visit you guys

what's your address

I'll see you next month you could you can go to trade shows

for example there are trade shows all around the world

not just in Shanghai Guangzhou

but also in Paris in Tokyo uh

when you go to trade shows

you will visit their booth of these factories

and you get to know them you see them in person

you go visit their factories later on as well

I would say definitely make the trip

you need to do 99% of that work

uh instead of just hoping that you can do all the work from home

like that's not possible

if we take a step back a little bit from manufacturing

so for consumer brands pricing is psychology

it sets the tone of your image

when everything was still super unclear during the early days

like how did you know what to charge

I get a lot of thinking about our early pricing

so Paire uses Australia

Merino wool and organic cotton with our socks in the very early days

and those are both very expensive materials

so if we were comparing to other basic essentials

brands in fast fashion

who are selling 5 dollar socks or even two dollar socks

we're definitely not gonna be able to compete with them

so obviously finding a position in the market is very important

but because we use Marina wool

it kind of

gives us an edge to compete with a lot of hiking brands out there

because Merino is usually more commonly used in hiking socks

or high end dress socks

so when you look at a hiking brand

they might sell a Merino wool blend socks at $50

or even $70 sometimes

and some dress socks that are made from cashmere

or even just wool can sell up from $70 as well

and that means we have a range between $2 to $70 um

and then we are a blend of Merino wool and organic cotton

so we just have to find a sweet spot and we like to look at ourselves

you know we wanna compare apples to apples

but we can't really sell at 50 dollars

we know that so we kinda just try to find a little space between

which was 20 to 24 dollars at the very beginning

uh

so for people who know hiking socks and wool socks they will be like

this is so cheap

and of course for people who are used to fast fashion brands

they will definitely feel that Paire is very expensive

but that's when education comes in

we do have to spend a lot of effort educating them that hey

wool socks is very different to polyester socks

and organic cotton is also very different to conventional cotton um

so there is that process there is that education um

but that's how we think about pricing

I love that okay

so now you're at an eight figure run rate

first off major congrats

thank you um

looking back what were the key unlocks for your growth journeys

the most common theme is always a big PR exposure really

uh

we had a broadsheet article in our first year

and that one did really well

that was a huge growth month for us

we were on The Current Affair

I think it was the second or third year

and later on last year we were on Shark Tank

and all these exposures have boosted our growth

uh significantly

but when it comes to PR there's a lot of luck involved obviously

so we don't really rely on it

another opportunity that we can plan and we did is new products

obviously when we first launched with socks

it's a very niche market

so there wasn't much growth opportunities within the sock category

um that's why two years later we launched underwear and t shirts

and underwear in particular has done super well for us

and Paire is actually now more of a underwear company

because we sell 60% underwear

amazing beautiful

revenue of that eight figure are

are men and women's underwear and mostly women's underwear

so

I would say new products are definitely

one of the biggest opportunities that we have found

and continuously to unlock

beautiful so OK

you mentioned Shark Tank so I must ask right

how did that come about and how do you think about like

using those kind of moments for growth momentum

well Shark Tank was a very interesting journey

I actually applied for Shark Tank the year before uh

my friends told me that oh

there's a opening uh for they're open for applications

you do wanna try

but the time I heard that news was already like 2 days before they

the deadline

so I I remember I submitted my application on

the very last day of that application deadline

and obviously I didn't hear back from them

cause later I know that they would have already

decided and locked in all the candidates for that year yeah

the yeah the pro yeah

I think the

the whole screening interview process starts very early on

and I know that thousands of people apply every year

so

they wouldn't have time to go through every applicant till the actual

deadline day um

so if you apply on the last day

that's like hundred percent no chance of getting in yeah

you you

you would want to be in the first day or within the first week they

the moment they open the applications

but um

the next year I actually got a call from Shark Tank and saying that

hey I saw your application from last year

are you still interested in coming on Shark Tank

and I said why not

there was so many rounds of um interviews

vibe checks uh

pitch checks I guess to see that if we are presentable you know

do we speak well on camera etcetera um

I was super nervous going in there

I was I'm

I'm an introvert and Rex is an extrovert so I was super super nervous

so I think we practiced the hell out of it

like I was repeating the script

three days straight before we record it

like we we

we feel we recorded it in Sydney and throughout the whole plane

I was just like mumbling the whole script

even that morning going to the studio

I was still mumbling the whole script like hi

I'm Nathan I'm coming to repair and I was like just

you can't fumble on TV you know

and we practice every single number

we know about the business

maybe it's an Asian thing but we don't want to fail on our exam days

so we over prepare

we like we over prepare so much that like we we kind of just

I don't think I ever studied that hard in my life

it's like it's like I studied harder than BC

I prep harder than than than my school time um

but I think it was it was worth it

like you need to be that prepared to be honest

it's national television

we we watch Shark Tank growing up and you know

and you know

they would want to make a fool of you

hundred percent it's

it's entertainment

and you don't want to look like a fool on national television right

so over preparing really help

uh cause after the show screen

we got so much feedback telling us that oh

you guys did really well you guys presented well

you guys look like you know you're on top of everything

well you have no idea how much we prepped for it

but it was worth it from in terms of exposure

we did really well that week when it screened um

I think we did an extra 50 k within that

week just from Shark Tank and we unlocked a lot of new customers

which is very important nowadays with meta being so expensive

before we got on Shark Tank before the recording session uh

a friend of mine actually went in for the recording as well

during the same season

and then he came back and told me that it's very much a show

uh

there was a lot of investment chats

but it was more like is a TV worthy at the same time

so he gave me the idea that at the end of the day this is a TV

uh

you might not get an investment but you should get the most out of it

so this was one week before our recording session

and we changed our entire pitch

one huge pivot is instead of talking about so many numbers

which was in our original script

we decided to just go from product to product

and introduce every product category we have on TV

so we pretty much turn the Shark Tank stage into a sales channel

and just go like hey

here's our sock here's our T-shirt

this is an underwear you should buy them um

and you know obviously

they did undercut us on the offer and we didn't want to take it

but at least we feel like we got the most out of it

I always think when you come in to pitch anyone

you should always lead with the story

lead with why it's different and then you can go into the numbers

this is a very good point because uh

the reason why we planned it like that is

we knew they were asked about the numbers anyway

if you put it in your pitch

it's a waste of time cause you only get 3 minutes pitch

and if you talk about all the numbers that they would have asked

anyway it's just such a waste of time you

you rather spend all that time talking about your story

your materials your development

like all the interesting part of it

your business

and then let them ask the boring parts later on in the Q&A session

so that was a very strategic decision to

to go like what is in the pitch and what we know we'll be in the Q&A

and we pray for that as well

at the early days like all your numbers feel very important

but like in the grand scheme of things

they're very small

exactly and it's about betting on the problem and the person okay

so you also mentioned that meta ads are very expensive now

so what's actually working for online and social growth

the gold rush times of meta ads is definitely gone by now

tragic

yeah tragic good times but meta ads still work

it's just about how do you approach it

I would say it is a lot more expensive

it is still worth it but if you do it the wrong way

you could be burning heaps of money anyway

we do a mix of meta and Google still

it's still mostly meta because parrot needs that storytelling uh

capability with that platform

but we're trying a lot of other things

organic content that we are testing uh

we are still looking for PR opportunities

we are looking to collaborations

influencers

business as usual

DC is used to be all the hype

especially with kind of like the prime days of like Glossier

but now we're seeing brands big and small opening stores

investing in physical retail experience again

so you've kind of gone down this path

starting online and then obviously opening up this beautiful store

so why and what shifts in the industry or consumer behavior

that you think made this move

there is a huge misunderstanding conceptually about DTC and it's very

very common there was a period of DTC gold rush 2015 to 2020

and every new DDC brand had the mindset of online is so scalable

it is a gold mine

we should just stick to online metas just do this playbook

it's gonna work and obviously

didn't work as well

since meta ads has gone pretty expensive over the last few years

and that's mainly just because of competition

it's not nothing against meta

it's just the competition and there was a moment that Paire

you know internally in our strategy meetings

we discussed this and one of my huge reflection is like hey

DTC doesn't really make sense

it just means direct to consumer

it doesn't mean online

it just means you're cutting through all the middleman

and getting the best price for your customers

you know what that's what Uniqlo does

that's what Lululemon does

are they DTC they kind of are actually

and they have thousands of stores across the world

why are we stuck on online and e commerce

so I think it's such

it's a topic that people can't really get their minds around

in a way that at the end of the day

you're just a business you're just a retail consumer brand business

you know but people try to put a lot of buzzwords

fancy words around it to sound

I guess VC worthy

ha ha ha

ha ha ha

you know what I mean and

but at the end of the day

you're just a business

and if most traditional business in the world have a store

there must be a reason for it

and it just comes down to human behavior

people just love visiting a store

shopping in the store they love the service

they love touching the products

they love seeing it real in front of them

and you know that's why there's such a huge pushback with AI

there's a huge pushback with all these online trends

because people like real things

it's just that simple

so I don't think we are like changing a trend or whatever

it's just looking at something at its core concept and just go like

hey this is what it really is and let's just do a store

there's nothing wrong with it

the store investment you mentioned that it recoups really quickly

so for this store we can make the investment back in one year

yeah 10 months to be precise

and we're very lucky obviously

uh I think in retail some stores will be looking at two to three years

but this is our first store

so probably that's why like

you know all the customers will come here

so you've had quite the journey

five years a lot of physical pain as well

what's one brutal

startup lesson that you wish someone had told you before you started

I try my best to be well equipped to run a startup

like I listen to a lot of podcasts like yours yourself

you know like

like many similar ones out there

how I built this at to cart um

a lot of different things to get ideas to try to avoid them

you know other people's mistakes

so I feel like I'm already mentally prepared and equipped

for what might come

uh

but yeah there

there's always gonna be challenges out of expectation

but I feel like that's what I like about startup as well

I would go back in time

I might not want to know what are the challenges ahead

ignorance is bliss sometimes

yeah

that's a lesson in itself in the sense that like

you should really enjoy the journey

I've met a lot of people who

wants to get to the outcome as quickly as possible

but the people that last actually just enjoys the journey

the people that last actually just enjoys the journey

all the hassles all the issues that you go along with it

but you learn so much in the progress

totally I think that's very that's very accurate

both of us are just very excited every day going to work

solving problems you know

hustling and just getting into the nitty gritty details about business

you know feeling defeated is part of the journey

and overcoming

that gives you the most accomplishment you can ever get in life

okay so the way that we like to end this is

I like to play a game called would you rather

I'll give you some scenarios you can choose

you can explain it or not explain it

okay so would you rather triple your sales overnight

but margins crash or slow steady profitable growth

simple

hmm

compete head to head with Lululemon or get copied by Shein

definitely compete with Lululemon

spend 12 hours packing boxes yourself

or 12 hours arguing with investors

arguing

yeah I

I love arguing

uh

I would pack boxes yeah

I I wouldn't say I love arguing

I like a debate

yeah Rex usually tends to soften things for me

but because I'm very opinionated usually

thank you so much for coming on the show

thanks for having me yeah

it's been really fun

that's a wrap if you like this episode

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okay see you next time

yeah so I would say for the first 100 customers just try everything we