What Harvard Didn't Know: I Was Already Building an 8-Figure Startup

imagine getting caught you're grinding on your startup 16 hours a day

you're Harvard PhD maybe two hours

the staff head of my department asked me for a zoom call

he screen shared on the Lumiere website with my face and she's Stephen

is this you got ultimatum from the department

you can either do your PhD

or you can run your company

and went on to build Lumia Education to an eight figure run rate

with 10,000 students across 105 countries

I actually started Lumiere because I was thinking man

I really wanna quit my PhD

but I don't know how

and it's gonna be really awkward if I don't have something else to do

attention's king so once you have attention

then after attention you can have everything else

what was the hardest period in your founder journey

I think founders are big wimps

hi I'm Stephen Turban and this is founders in motion

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okay let's get back to the video

you're on the PhD track at Harvard Business School

about as safe and prestigious as it gets

while building Lumiere on the side

so could you walk me back to the specific moment

where you realized that the side project

needed to become a main thing

and what was kind of the tipping point or conversation around it

so I run Lumiere at education company

we're now about 100 people full time

but when we started this is back in 2020

I actually started Lumiere because I was thinking man

I really wanna quit my PhD

but I don't know how

and it's gonna be really awkward if I don't have something else to do

that was genuinely my thoughts

I was like hey shit

so what do I need to do

so I thought if I have a company that's working

that will give me a choice set

I think it's hard for people to take risks

and so you

I think one thing I think about is how do I de risk the other option

so how could I quit I could have another option

so anyway so I started Lumiere and then to be honest with you

it was really that my my PhD was a side thing

and then I was like just grinding on Lumiere like

you know 16 hours a day

and then PhD was two hours a day

actually I was doing fine

like I my PJ was doing totally fine

I think I could have finished the PhD

what a subtle flex you know no no

it's not no

I was doing it's not even subtle

I was doing I was

I was doing well OK

I was doing OK I was doing OK

and my co founder actually did finish his PhD Druva

but um

I was like a about a semester in about two semesters in

I was thinking maybe I should quit

but then I was like ah no

actually I maybe I should just continue

it's so easy to

I'm totally honest

I think Phds and like social sciences are like pretty easy

I'm just being so honest

you know like

I don't think it was that hard

so this is not that hard so

but anyways I had this and my um

the head of the staff head of my department asked me for a zoom call

and I was like oh

I'd love to catch up with her

she brought me to Zoom Room

there's one other person and then she's like hi

I'm like hi

and then she started screen sharing

and then she

he screen shared on the Lumiere website with my face

and she said she said Stephen

is this you and then the profile was like hi

I'm Stephen Turban I'm a PhD student at HBS

and I'm like no

yes you know exactly what you can say like versus me

and then and then actually I got an ultimatum from the department

they said hey

which I think is reasonable

they're like hey

you can either do your PhD or you can run your company

but you can't do both

which is ironic cause actually I was studying entrepreneurship

but anyways I

I think that's fair they

they give you a stipend

and so it was a great moment at the time I felt kind of bummed

but it was an amazing forcing function for me

and at that point I realized I just love doing the startup thing

and yeah I

I like actually really like research

my dad's professor business professor

I like it but it's just not my not my passion

and so then I it was actually I was at the time I was kind of pissed

but I was so grateful now in retrospect where they gave me that choice

and it was actually a really easy decision

I said oh okay

I'll just pause the PhD and I can always go back

so when you came back to tell your family and friend

and you also moved to Vietnam around the same time

I was already in Vietnam I was at that time yeah

yeah I was already in Vietnam at this point

so what did your what did your parents think of it cause your dad also

professor yeah

you know I have the the greatest parents on earth

they are so chill and my parents all my parents are from Hawaii

everyone in my family is from Hawaii

maybe that's why they're so chill dude

they're so chill

and and they're my dad's super smart super hard working

so is my mom but in Hawaii

the coolest thing to do is to be really good at pickleball

that's the coolest thing okay

Pickle's Hole yeah

or like we're surfing or whatever yeah

like that's cool whatever you do in your job doesn't matter that much

so I I told them and my parents were like oh

like that's great that's great honey

that's great honey yeah

they were they were so supportive

they were like that's whatever you wanna do

you know I love that so for them

I don't think it mattered at all for I think for me

it mattered a little bit it was a little bit

identity change

but I did it because I want to change the identity

you spent so much of your life in a very structured academic setting

and then obviously going down the research track

like it's quite an academic feat

like

how did you switch from the research scientist brain over to like

founder startup brain mindset

so I think people think of researchers as like

kind of like just nerds who are good at school

and some are and a lot are to be honest

but they're very similar entrepreneurs

the three groups are very similar are researchers

entrepreneurs and artists

cause they're all trying to create something new

from something that doesn't exist before

like they're very they're creatives

all three are creatives it's very I used to work at Mckinsey

that's very different than being an entrepreneur

and that's very different than being a researcher

but actually the research entrepreneur brand I think super similar

you're creating experiments

you're trying things out you're you're learning for a job

so I think of them as almost um

identical and I and I think actually for my dad

who is I when I became a PhD student

I realized oh my god my dad is like a prolific researcher

he has like 30,000 citations

he's like top by point he's crushing it

this guy is such a dork he's such a dorky dude

he's my dad but I realized oh

I think my dad

if he had been an entrepreneur would have also crushed it

and he was just using the exact same energy

but to be a researcher so I think of them as extremely uh compatible

the issue I think is that sometimes PhD students

and this is true for people are like

you know consulting or really anything

you get caught up in the system and then you start optimizing for like

oh how do I get

10 year

how do I get this like publication this year on that's that's lame

that's a useless skill I think outside of that context

but the learning skill I think that's quite

quite useful okay

so a lot of people have ideas for education startup

probably one of the biggest segment of the market

um you decided to focus

focus on PhD level research for high schoolers

which is um

a little bit niche it's niche

it's nerdy yeah

so why start there for me

I felt like it was such a good fit

I was a PhD student at Oxford as soon as PhD

we both study at Harvard

we like get the I but I really get that hustling high school kid

I was that kid I don't know if you were

you must have been that kid

you're at like no

I was like the chillest kid

you know you were chill OK

you don't seem that chill

you know you were

you know like school is so easy

like you said it was so easy

it was so easy yeah

I actually high school's hard

PhD easy that's that's actually true

high school was probably harder than university for me right

so much right

so I really get that kid

I also got the PhD because I was that the reluctantly

I was also that PhD student

so it felt like a good fit of both yeah

and then you know

now Lumiere I mentioned we

you know we we run

you know six

five six brands

we about this year we have about 6,000 students who work with us

we have team about 100 hundred 10

so now we've expanded a lot

but we started with a very like small niche

which is a really good fit for for us

and now we have a lot of other players in that space

and that's great um

but for us it was just a it was an easy fit because I had no skills

right I was like a PhD student

a lot of people are in the space are trying

to do something quite similar

yeah how do you guys think about like

um standing out

education is so easy OK

it's so easy people who start education companies are mainly educators

I'm also I love education

like I really my dad's probably care so much about it

on average educators are not like cutthroat private equity dudes

you know they're not like the top

like they're not like my college roommate who's like

grinding on AI startup okay

they're just like nice people who care about students

who are like so friendly and

happy

you know like that's the vibe of average educator founder

yes so I first of all be that like have that education focus

but then just have some like chops in terms of like getting stuff done

I think actually it's really not a super competitive

competitive market but you want to

I think there's two mistakes

make one is you become too much the educator

you don't think about building the business

and the second is that you become too much the private equity dude

and then you're just like

you think of students is just like cash signs

and that doesn't work either because family

you can feel that

you can feel when someone's just trying to get a buck from you

education is all about trust

so when you guys started Lumen

you were in your early 20s

selling a premium academic product to parents

did you ever get any pushback because of your age

or because of your lack of experience

and then how did you convert them

well I

I have like kind of a I'm like super down to

to to tell truths that are like not like on the surface are true

but like actually are true

but they're like kind of like not what someone asked the question

so people would ask me early on

like I remember my very first uh

six months doing Lumiere we grew a lot

the first six months I remember people would be like

oh hey

how long you've been running Lumiere for

and the answer had been like

like 84 days but then I had started like three cohorts

we had like launch cohorts so

like oh

we're on our third cohort

I would just like reframe it

you know I'd be like

oh we're on our fifth cohort or something

you know I would never answer their question yeah

you know or I'd be like oh

you know how old do you know like oh

you know uh

I graduated a couple years ago

you know that's a great question

you know I've been guiding suits for five years whatever

like I just reframe it

I think age can be something that like

first of all I think it's fair uh

to the way I think about it is you

you don't always need to answer the question in front of you

yeah you should try to figure out

what's the story

I wanna tell that's going most effective for the other person

but to be honest at that point

it was Covid everything had like shut down

and so we

seems like we had something that was actually working during Covid

and so we seem like oh

these guys actually know what they're doing and we went to hard

heard and we were like PhD students that said we're like yeah 20

I think drew was 24 I was 25 26

so we weren't like

I think we were reasonable enough for parents for them to accept

so I think that was the key

yeah for us

yeah you're at least in your mid mid twenties right yeah yeah

I feel like some like white guy

I feel like you know

you get a lot of uh white guy from the US

I feel like you get a lot of like it depends actually on the clientele

by the way like for like

let's say like a we we have a big operation in India

in India I think like I would just be like a random white dude

that was actually pretty helpful whereas in the

you asked for my co founder who's like a he's a Indian man actually

and like a really like high IQ like a lovely human

he he really kills with like the the middle aged white women

so you have to know your audience

oh my God yeah

he crushes he slays with like the moms

the Midwestern moms

so what clientele do you crush with the Asian moms for sure

so in the early days

did you ever get pressured to like productize or scale differently

and why did you decide against it

for me

I thought it was tempting

but I really know myself and one thing or I don't know

I think I know myself and at least one thing

I think that's true about me is I really like to have autonomy

I like to be able to call the shots

I don't like

I actually don't perform well when someone tells me what to do

and I felt like having an investor or someone buying me

I would suddenly have a boss

and I really don't like having a boss

I think I'm a I'm a like I'm an a minus entrepreneur

but I'm like a C minus employee

I like so bad I was at Mackenzie

I was not good it's like genuinely not good

I'm sure you're like way better than me

so so it's like it's like I don't do well with authority right

I don't do well with authority

I genuinely don't I just get

I bristle I bristle

I bristle so for me

being a bootstrap founder allowed me to

to kind of control my own destiny

but also it's I think for the type of

company I run yeah

some companies like really pure play tech companies

you have this like

economic model where you put a lot of investment up front

and then a lot of the returns come year four

year five

but if you're running a company that has good margins that makes money

it doesn't have the upfront cost

I just don't think you need to raise

raise money and you actually build a better company as a result

so I think that's the that's the outcome

I also do think like um

yes different type of businesses

like some are not the best for fundraising for sure

um or you also just don't need the fundraising

cause you have the service fees up front anyways

yeah and then I think the other thing too is like

depending on the market you play in

that also plays a factor cause I

I spoke to some so I used to work at a VC fund out of Southeast Asia

and they're kind of like

this is very different from like how we looked at it in Australia

in the sense that like just like you're capped by market size

you're capped by like supply demand

you're capped by like certain things

that doesn't quite exist for like a pure play AI

b to B

productized thing that can sell into basically the entire world

so somewhere along the line

you had leverage assistant Pairing E A's with founders

which you eventually sold to focus on Lumiere

yeah so here's what I'm really curious about

if you're a good founder you see opportunities everywhere OK yeah

how do you maintain discipline and focus for the long run

when I was like 25 or a few years ago

I would look at someone who said oh

I have like five companies

I'd be like you are a fucking god

how do you do you just you fuck it

like I bow at your feet sir

you know and now I look at that person

I'm like you are a fucking idiot yep

you're so dumb why are you doing that

you know because what I Learned

so what happened

just a quick story is that I ran the mirror for three years

we grew a lot and we're like 50 people at that point

and I saw this opportunity

we hire globally like mainly in APAC

and I thought oh my god

I'm so good at hiring

I just I crushed it

I'm so I'm so talented

and I saw other people do it

this is literally what I thought

I'm just be honest this is what I thought I was like

other guys running these like assistant companies are idiots

they're based in the US they don't get it

I got it yeah

and so it's like I'm gonna

start this company and I started it and it was okay it works okay

but I was doing nothing well

I was like

that company was doing okay and then Lumiere didn't have my attention

so it was doing fine

but it wasn't wasn't doing as well as it could to be honest

and I took me about a year to realize how stupid I was

and I was just being arrogant

I just thought oh cause I you know

cause I did one thing well

my shits smelled like gold so I could do anything well

but actually no heads up I just

I just spent a lot of time on that first thing

and I just had split attention

so so I eventually sold that company

it's like for not much by the way

it's not like some amazing so I just sold it

so there's two things I one for me actually

I do like new stuff so I have to

to focus that energy around new things towards an existing

an existing product so like for example

for me with Lumiere we're an education company

I'll let myself start education companies

because they fit inside the Lumiere umbrella

mmm hmm we have that can provide returns for us yeah

or I can innovate within a product

but I can't go outside the educate once I go outside education

I'm an idiot you know that's what I tell myself yeah

so I think if you're someone who's like kind of ADHD like me

and you love to start new stuff

I think that's okay but you have to scope yourself down

and what I did with the assistant company was was dumb

cause I went from like

I had this great education company and I started an assistant company

that was stupid so that that's that was such a rookie mistake

and I hope I don't make

I probably will make that mistake again in some other other form

but I scoped it down a little bit

so you just wanna know like what's the confidence

what's the area you wanna you wanna build them

so Lumia has grown a ton over the last few years

looking back

what was the hardest period in your founder journey

I think founders are big wimps

they're big complainers who love to say that their life is so hard

for me my experience is that starting a company can be difficult

it can be ambiguous mm hmm but

especially if you don't raise money

the only person who's judging you is yourself

cause no one really gives a shit about you

yeah you know

no one cares like

I mean I run my company now

I think it's a cool size whatever

but no one cares like no one's ever thinking

I wonder how Lumiere's like

no one ever thinks about right

so I've had some hard moments

uh

certainly the hardest are always around people

in my mind

it's actually a journey of like joy and discovery and like learning

and so if you like learning

I think it's really really fun

so I I'm not answering your question

but I'm just kind of ranting

cause I think that a lot of the times

the framing around being a founder is like

my life is so hard like a

it's like incredible sacrifice I'm doing

yep but founders

people who make the most money

are people who own a lot of equity in companies

mm hmm so I

that's kind of like what was me

you know I don't know

I don't think all founders should have like

their cake and eat it too

when it comes to yeah

a difficult life so there's hard parts

yeah but it's

it's not I had a way harder time working at Mackenzie

you know what I'm saying that's

that sucks that was

that's terrible it's like choosing your poison

you know oh my God

but that's a terrible poison really

I think it's so hard I found that so hard

were you bad at Mackenzie

I was I think I was

I think I was not good I wasn't terrible

I don't think I would have been fired

but I wasn't amazing yeah

and I just think I just I found that really

like when someone's yelling at me and being like dude

you suck that that sucks

but like when I like I don't know

I fuck up something in my company

I don't yeah I think

that's not a big deal um okay

so you also do stand up comedy

yes in Vietnamese

a language that you're still in the midst of learning yes

you post controversial takes on

on LinkedIn um so

so

you've kind of leaned into this public persona of being the kind of

controversial founder pretty deliberately

is there something strategic about um

this framing of being the funny

unconventional founder yeah

totally I

people are so bored

ever no

don't you think so ever

there's this amazing study

I probably gonna make up this study

I think it's real study where I think it was Dan Gilbert

where the study is that uh

you it's so funny

you you put people in a room and then there's a buzzer

and then the researcher says hey

um this is for another experiment

this is an electric shock

fuck hahaha it won't kill you I'm gonna come back but just hey

just hang out here

and then they leave and they leave them there for an hour

and the experiment is

how many people electrocute themselves intentionally

you know the answer is a lot hahaha

a lot it's like crazy hahaha I to me

I always think of that experiment'cause I think life is

people are so bored the way I think about it is that attention's king

so once you have attention

then after attention you can have everything else like someone has

you have their attention yep then they can take a call hey

do I like this guy do I not like him

do I like their company

do I not but the most common thing is no one knows who you are no

I mean I am like shouting into the world my comedy my LinkedIn

whatever almost no

I'm sure most who watch it don't know who I am right

you don't know who I am so I'm just like out there

mmm hmm

and then people can hit like whatever I'm doing and then make a call

but I think that's a much more effective process

I think the alternative people take is that they think

I'm just gonna work hard and then people will like find me via my

my hard work and I don't think people usually do

I agree so yeah that's I think do you agree with that

though do you think I maybe you should like how

how where do you

do you embrace that are you a controversial

so I so OK

I have to say one thing is like I'm not as controversial yeah

but I think one of the main thing is like

I think when a when a woman is controversial

it sometimes is taken in a bad way

like I feel like as a woman

you have to balance the line a little bit

um but yeah

I think like most content is really boring

so I try to be different you know

like people pick me they're like

oh like you're actually interesting

and I'm like thanks

this is not even my best content

like you should speak to me

like I think I'm pretty fucking funny alright

you know so

but you know I had this amazing experience where I

I had this post on pretty and I got super cancelled on Reddit for it

where I said there's something along the lines of like hey

if you're not going to Bali this summer

go fuck yourself hahaha

it went super viral and then

and then I had so many people message me

and I kid you not so many people message me they're like

this post really spoke to me and I was like dude

how could it possibly speak to you

I said go fuck yourself

and they're like I loved it

and I was like oh my God

this is crazy am I like in like

like Black Mirror this is insane

you know

but I think it's because people just want something interesting

something authentic

and that that kind of pushes them and then they feel like

oh actually I wanna

I would wanna hang out with this person even though they're like crazy

you know or whatever

so I I think that's true

and you also moved to Vietnam like in your early 20s

like as an expat so

what were those first few months like

when you are still figuring out the country

the language and the culture

yeah so I moved to Vienna

what happened is that I had this

and I highly recommend this for everyone

it's like like amazing

not for like a life hack but like an amazing

I think life approach

I had uh

the job offer Mckinsey

and then I pushed it out as far as possible

they gave me like 3 start dates

I picked the farthest one

I asked if I could like extend it 2 months later

so I had this like 4 5 month period before

after college when I had a job where I could do whatever I wanted

I just wanted to do something new

hmm so I thought

oh be fun

I really like language learning

I spoke Chinese I thought

oh I come to Vietnam

maybe I can learn Vietnamese

and I came and I just loved it

like I just I realized I came to Vietnam I meant

this place is changing so quickly

there's so many opportunities

and there's really something to be done here

and of course I'm not Vietnamese

I'm like some random white dude

but I felt like there was a big opportunity even for me

and so those first few months were really just joyful

I to be honest

I was spending six hours a day

in Vietnamese class just grinding

I was just grinding every day

it's so cute me and my

my goal my teacher

she's still my teacher by the way

eight years later yeah

she's incredible and I

I just loved it and so Vietnam is a

is a is a crazy place

but it's I think it's really warm and opening to new people yeah

uh and I felt that

and then I just invested a lot in

in the language and

and trying to be a part of the place instead of being

I just I don't wanna be on the outside of a society

you know I don't

I mean I'm an expat

but I don't wanna you wanna be included

I just wanna be loved I just wanna be one of the guys

you know what happened exactly

what do you think helped you a lot during that period

so one thing I do is that I have a lot of habits in my life

to keep the most important people in my life

a part of my life hmm

so an example that was my best friends

my college roommate

we have a we have a workout call over zoom three times a week

where we both go for a run

he's in New York I'm in Vietnam

so every Monday Wednesday

Friday for me it's seven PM for her it's 7:00am

we go for a run together and we talk on the phone

I think these patterns make it so that I always have

the core people in my life

are always a part of my life

mm hmm and then that gives me a lot of space to

to feel safe yeah

emotionally at least and then I can go explore it and not seek

for someone kind of contemplating a similar move

like uprooting their whole life for a new country

a new adventure and I think I

I know what your answer would be

but like what would you tell them no

why

what would I tell in terms of like

should they do it or like

should they do it and like

what should they consider

well it's a two way door

I think it's the first one

you can always go not like it and go back

yeah usually

I mean unless like you're like facing some visa stuff

so I get that but like

usually it's a two way door usually

I mean no

no it's really helpful to be American right

no no

it's super helpful I just

I recognize it but even then

usually it's a two way door

let's say you get us you have to be at home OK

apply to NBA whatever

like there's usually another way to to do it if you want to

I would say you should trust your intuition early on

I think within a few months

you can usually get a sense of your trajectory in the city

that's my experience

I moved to maybe like five cities six cities in my life

four of them outside of the US

and then I felt like within a maybe four months

I could have a sense of like

okay is this gonna be really easy fit

or is this gonna be more difficult fit

I think you should just trust your intuition there

and then sometimes like it's not perfect

but that's okay because you have to do other stuff in your life

that's totally fine

that's that's a that's a big one to trust your intuition

and I would say finally is like

one thing you should consider is throwing parties

yes

throw don't wait for other people to I never get invited to parties

is that a personal thing you think I I rarely get invited to parties

but I throw a lot of parties

and so if you are the one proactively creating something

especially when you're new

be the one to create stuff

don't wait for other people to to invite you in

cause you're just gonna wait and it's gonna be lonely

and I think if you force yourself

I'm just gonna have a little dinner of six people you'll find

and some red like maybe they're like

see less people you know

maybe they're not like the perfect person

see less people you know what I'm saying

no I'm not saying like you're a bad person

I'm saying like they're like a seamless friend for you

like they're like not you're not like

oh you're my you're my boy

but you're like OK

you're fine like

you know what

you're gonna bite and and then you might realize actually

I really like them because you gave them a chance

you hung out with them as opposed to like

you know you're just perception of them for 20 minutes

so you met them at the gym or wherever you meet people

so yeah do you still throw parties

I still throw parties yeah

wow yeah

yeah yeah

so I think so guys

everyone ping Stephen to get invited to this party

yeah yeah

no it's B minus

but he will rank you I will rank you

so you have quite a probably persona

when people meet you for the first time after following you online

what's something that would shock them

about the real version of Stephen versus the social media one

I mean I think on LinkedIn

I cuss a lot in real life

I think I cuss like a little bit

but it's not like a huge part of uh

I'm not that aggressive I'm actually not that aggressive of a

of a person um

when hanging out I actually usually

this is obviously interview setting

so I'm talking a lot I usually ask more questions than I speak

I usually don't talk that much

yeah in a group setting

you do ask a lot of questions

I have to admit oh okay okay

okay let's go let's go

no but I think that's a big difference

I think on social media you're like

social media is you end up like optimizing for that algorithm

yep and so

that means you choose the things that are gonna be most

relevant for that algorithm

but that's a very spiky part of who you are

yeah and I think in real life

I'm not that spiky not as spiky okay

and then if you had to give one sentence of wisdom to the

Stephen of 5 years ago yeah

when you're so young and naive

what would it be I think the

the big thing I would say is

you should lean into the things that create a sense of belonging

in the place you are that took me a couple years in Saigon

so I live in Saigon I've been there in Saigon about six years

my first three four years I was running this kind of global company

uh and I wasn't too connected to the city

even though I really like had lots of friends and all that

but my my life wasn't too connected

yeah and then

the big change for me was when I started doing stand up comedy

in Vietnamese and that made me join a group that is rooted to Vietnam

and that really changed my life

I would say

and it made me just feel like a lot more connected to this place

cause I knew that I could move

but I could never move that part of my life with me

and it created a cost and I think when I was a bit younger

I was afraid of those costs

I didn't wanna I didn't wanna reduce my optionality

but now I you know

I think actually when you force yourself to

to

to be in a place or to to be in a position or with a person whatever

you usually create more meaning in your life

so that took me a few years to realize

I wish I had Learned a bit earlier honestly

so like

how would you recommend other people to create that sense of belonging

that is like in

in their own settings to not think of yourself as being temporary

cause I don't think it's that helpful

you might be temporary we're all

we're all temporary right

we're all gonna die we're like

we're all gonna end up something's gonna change our life yeah uh

but I think the mindset is not super useful

because you end up

not investing in things that then accumulate over time

yeah relationships in my case language

I think a really clear example of this is in Vietnam

most foreigners don't really speak Vietnamese

yeah a lot of them been there for 10

15 20 years

and I think man

that has to be from a short term mindset

and I get it if like every moment you're thinking

should I learn Vietnamese at every moment

it's not the right moment to learn it

but it's a really short term outlook

and then I think they end up having a less rich life because of it

so I think that's that's a

that's the suggestion I would make

it's more about the mindset of

of uh

thinking about the long term

you know cool cool

um well

thank you Stephen

for coming on the show

had a great conversation and so many good hot takes

yeah what would you say out of ten

wait you no

you're like 100 like off the freaking charts right

that was so genuine I so appreciate that

I think you're so fun I really enjoyed it

and I hope um

I hope it was useful that's a wrap

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