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00:00 We help young adults find and build 00:03
00:03 friendships by connecting over social 00:05
00:05 plan. 00:06
00:06 >> Butter has already hit 10,000 users and 00:08
00:08 now it's gearing up to launch across 00:10
00:10 Australia. 00:11
00:11 >> We want to create the world where every 00:13
00:13 inerson interaction is built on butter. 00:15
00:15 I would always find that every time I 00:17
00:17 move cities, I'd start from scratch. I'd 00:19
00:19 start to build that community again. I 00:21
00:21 did try Bumble for Friends, but they 00:23
00:23 didn't really work for me. I knew that I 00:25
00:25 wanted to ship quickly and iterate. You 00:28
00:28 can build a product, but who's going to 00:30
00:30 use it if you can't see that out and get 00:31
00:31 people to hear about it? 00:36
00:36 Quick thing before we get started. We 00:38
00:38 have a lofty goal this year of hitting 00:40
00:40 1,000 subscribers in order to help more 00:42
00:42 people build really great companies. So, 00:44
00:44 if you enjoy the content, learn 00:46
00:46 something new, the best way to support 00:48
00:48 us is by subscribing. Okay, let's get 00:51
00:51 into it. Thank you, Sam, for joining me 00:53
00:53 today on Founders in Motion. So, just to 00:55
00:55 set the stage, what are you building 00:57
00:57 with Butter and why should everyone 00:59
00:59 download it? 01:00
01:00 >> Thanks for having me. For starters, it's 01:02
01:02 very exciting. Um, so I'm Sam. I'm the 01:04
01:04 founder of Butter. Butter is the app to 01:07
01:07 hang out with new friends. So, 01:09
01:09 essentially, we help young adults find 01:11
01:11 and build friendships by connecting over 01:14
01:14 social plans. So, think week dinners, 01:17
01:17 going for a run, um, grabbing a coffee, 01:20
01:20 those kind of everyday interactions. 01:22
01:22 You've moved cities in your 30s, 01:24
01:24 suddenly making friends feel really 01:26
01:26 awkward and you try Bumble BFF meetups 01:30
01:30 and all these um networking type groups. 01:34
01:34 What was missing from all those 01:36
01:36 interactions? 01:38
01:38 >> Yeah. So, I I was moving a lot from my 01:41
01:41 late teens really up until my mid20s. 01:44
01:44 I'd moved cities six times. You know, I 01:46
01:46 would always find that every time I 01:48
01:48 moved cities, I'd start from scratch. 01:50
01:50 I'd start to build that community again. 01:52
01:52 I'd start to have a social life and then 01:54
01:54 I'd have to up and move again. And I 01:56
01:56 would find that kind of, you know, 01:58
01:58 consistent change really frustrating and 01:60
01:60 the consistent rebuilding. But then on 02:02
02:02 top of that, you know, I was evolving 02:04
02:04 and changing really quickly. Like that 02:06
02:06 time of our life, we, you know, our 02:08
02:08 values change, our priorities, our 02:09
02:09 goals, all that type of thing. I did try 02:11
02:11 Bumble for Friends. I did try um Meetup, 02:15
02:15 all of those kind of other alternatives 02:17
02:17 in the market at the time and they 02:19
02:19 didn't really work for me in the way 02:21
02:21 that I wanted to where I wanted to be 02:22
02:22 able to do those things on the weekend 02:24
02:24 like going out for dinner, going to see 02:26
02:26 my favorite band play and those types of 02:29
02:29 products didn't really fit into my 02:31
02:31 lifestyle. Um and it didn't really make 02:34
02:34 it easy for you to build those authentic 02:36
02:36 connections. I think particularly, you 02:38
02:38 know, how we've built butter is around 02:40
02:40 >> um building that frequency and that 02:42
02:42 proximity of connection by actually 02:45
02:45 meeting over the things you already love 02:47
02:47 doing. And with those alternatives, I 02:49
02:49 didn't really have that opportunity. Our 02:51
02:51 tagline is invent yourself. So, we're 02:52
02:52 not, you know, an app. We don't want to 02:55
02:55 be a friendship app. We're a lifestyle 02:57
02:57 companion where you can actually create 02:59
02:59 the life that you want and become the 03:00
03:00 person you want through connection. What 03:03
03:03 if you want to discover a new hobby? How 03:05
03:05 can you actually do that with the people 03:07
03:07 who want to join you? Like that's the 03:09
03:09 problem we're solving. So in that sense, 03:11
03:11 we're not necessarily, you know, a 03:13
03:13 platform just for people who are 03:15
03:15 experiencing disconnection. It's kind 03:16
03:16 of, you know, for those people who might 03:19
03:19 have that really niche interest that 03:20
03:20 they love that they want to share. So 03:22
03:22 this isn't your first rodeo in the 03:25
03:25 social app space. You built a couple's 03:29
03:29 friendship app before. So tell me like 03:32
03:32 did it take off and like what did you 03:34
03:34 learn from that experience? We never got 03:36
03:36 to the point of launching. So we um at 03:39
03:39 the time spent a ridiculous amount of 03:42
03:42 money engaging developers to build the 03:45
03:45 product and we weren't even building a 03:46
03:46 mobile app. We were building a web 03:48
03:48 platform which is insane to even think 03:50
03:50 about now as kind of the use case for 03:53
03:53 it. You would never kind of go and log 03:54
03:54 onto a website to 03:56
03:56 >> find new friends as a couple. Um but the 03:59
03:59 premise you know was always there. So 04:00
04:00 obviously um you know my personal 04:03
04:03 experience I kind of always had this 04:05
04:05 concept ticking around in my head of how 04:07
04:07 we can we actually make it easier for 04:09
04:09 people to build new friendships and find 04:11
04:11 new community. That execution was wrong 04:14
04:14 for a variety of reasons. Um the target 04:17
04:17 market was tiny. Um the need wasn't 04:21
04:21 quite right either and then obviously 04:22
04:22 how we were building it as well. Um it 04:25
04:25 wasn't the right approach to actually 04:28
04:28 build a solid solution. We were spending 04:30
04:30 so much time getting the product right. 04:32
04:32 Yeah. 04:33
04:33 >> And that was something that I took 04:35
04:35 particularly into butter and um made 04:38
04:38 that active shift into you know shipping 04:41
04:41 faster and just getting something into 04:43
04:43 the market to see if it works. We yeah 04:45
04:45 we spent a lot of time just you know 04:48
04:48 trying to build the product in the right 04:50
04:50 way and get it probably more ready than 04:51
04:51 an MVP needs to be and then obviously 04:54
04:54 add to that working with offshore 04:55
04:55 developers. things take a little bit 04:56
04:56 longer. Um, you know, they're not a 04:58
04:58 full-time team. They're a contracted 04:60
04:60 team. Um, you know, you potentially, you 05:03
05:03 know, the rates are cheaper than doing 05:04
05:04 something onshore. But the amount of 05:07
05:07 time that you spend iterating, you kind 05:09
05:09 of, you know, end up spending the same 05:11
05:11 amount anyway. 05:13
05:13 >> Anecdote in terms of learning about how 05:15
05:15 to develop, build, and ship very 05:18
05:18 quickly. 05:18
05:18 >> Yeah. and also probably a cautionary 05:20
05:20 tale for anyone thinking of working um 05:24
05:24 like relying too much on like offshore 05:27
05:27 um developers. Okay. So before you wrote 05:29
05:29 a single line of code, how did you think 05:31
05:31 about testing demand at large? Once I 05:34
05:34 did the initial research 05:37
05:37 um you know articles that kind of 05:39
05:39 classic secondary research, I then 05:43
05:43 decided to look at surveying a lot of 05:46
05:46 potential customers. um actually put out 05:49
05:49 a Tik Tok video when we had like a 05:51
05:51 hundred followers. It was a very simple 05:53
05:53 video of me talking to camera. Um I'm 05:55
05:55 looking to meet a group of these types 05:57
05:57 of people within this age bracket. I 05:59
05:59 want you to give me 15 minutes of your 06:01
06:01 time. Talk to me about disconnection, 06:03
06:03 friendship, community. Um comment below 06:05
06:05 if you're interested. And I got I ended 06:08
06:08 up doing about 100 80 to 100 interviews 06:10
06:10 from that through a mix of over the 06:12
06:12 phone coffee interviews um and online 06:14
06:14 interviews as well. And that really gave 06:17
06:17 me the depth of research I needed to 06:20
06:20 understand, you know, across the full 06:22
06:22 scope of the market, how people are 06:25
06:25 thinking about the problem, how they 06:26
06:26 solving it for themselves, and how are 06:28
06:28 they um, you know, wanting it to be 06:30
06:30 solved if they are. And so that was a 06:32
06:32 really good foundation for me to say, 06:34
06:34 okay, cool. I learned a lot from it, 06:36
06:36 particularly with the difference between 06:38
06:38 how men and women think about 06:40
06:40 disconnection and solve it is it it's 06:42
06:42 night and day, which is super 06:44
06:44 interesting. Um, and then from there put 06:47
06:47 together a a rough MVP that was just a 06:51
06:51 prototype. 06:52
06:52 >> Okay, you have to tell me. So, how do 06:54
06:54 men and women view disconnection 06:56
06:56 differently? 06:57
06:57 >> Yeah, women from the research that we've 06:60
06:60 done and a lot of the commentary you see 07:02
07:02 online, women are more open about their 07:07
07:07 challenges with disconnection. And I 07:08
07:08 think, you know, one of the things we're 07:10
07:10 addressing disconnection is kind of 07:12
07:12 like, you know, what dating apps were 10 07:15
07:15 years ago where there was this stigma 07:17
07:17 around it and, you know, you might have 07:19
07:19 mentioned that you were on an dating app 07:21
07:21 to find a partner. And people would have 07:22
07:22 been like, "Oh my god, you desperate 07:25
07:25 loser. I can't believe you're going 07:27
07:27 online to find a partner." Like that's 07:29
07:29 what it was initially. 07:30
07:30 kind of take on that that um you know 07:34
07:34 that kind of emotional association of 07:36
07:36 the stigma and are less willing to speak 07:39
07:39 about it and actively try and solve it 07:41
07:41 to an extent. I don't want to put 07:42
07:42 everyone in the same bucket. Taking that 07:44
07:44 into account as well to kind of consider 07:46
07:46 how we build the product and how we 07:48
07:48 market the product over time so that we 07:50
07:50 can solve this for both sides of the 07:54
07:54 market. You know, we don't just want to 07:55
07:55 solve this for women because men need it 07:57
07:57 as well. We just need to make sure that 07:59
07:59 we're building it and approaching it in 08:01
08:01 the right way that makes sense for them. 08:02
08:02 >> We chatted briefly before this and 08:04
08:04 you're well above this benchmark, 08:07
08:07 >> but how did you get your first 100 08:10
08:10 users? It was a big focus on digital and 08:14
08:14 on content unsurprisingly. I feel like 08:16
08:16 you know the the core customer, the 08:18
08:18 butter serves being that 18 to 08:20
08:20 35year-old 08:22
08:22 man or women woman. um we needed to kind 08:26
08:26 of appear where they were and show up, 08:29
08:29 you know, on socials in content and 08:31
08:31 really drive it organically that way. Um 08:34
08:34 so I did that from a brand perspective, 08:36
08:36 but also from a founder perspective, 08:38
08:38 which at the time and still is my 08:41
08:41 nightmare fuel. I absolutely hate 08:45
08:45 >> creating founder content and appearing 08:47
08:47 in it, but it must be done and I'm much 08:48
08:48 better now than I was like a year ago 08:51
08:51 even. That's actually a sentiment that I 08:52
08:52 hear so much. Like it's like one of 08:56
08:56 those I think it's like appearing on 08:58
08:58 social media has become this thing where 08:59
08:59 you have to do it but everyone's just 09:02
09:02 like 09:03
09:03 I wish that there was some privacy in my 09:05
09:05 life. 09:06
09:06 >> Exactly. But you know coming back to the 09:08
09:08 problem itself I think it's really 09:10
09:10 important to see 09:11
09:11 >> you know there is actually a person 09:13
09:13 behind this and you can associate that 09:15
09:15 you're not the only one going through it 09:16
09:16 because this boundary is and that's why 09:18
09:18 they're building it. And for butter, 09:20
09:20 that was, you know, an important kind of 09:22
09:22 foundation to lay to make people more 09:25
09:25 inclined to actually join the platform 09:26
09:26 and get involved. So that was really 09:29
09:29 important um for butter and I'm yeah 09:32
09:32 getting better at it now, but yeah, it's 09:35
09:35 it's not my favorite thing to do 09:37
09:37 unfortunately. So we bootstrapped 09:39
09:39 butter. So I was solo a solo founder at 09:41
09:41 the time. 09:42
09:42 >> Yeah. So it was outsourcing the dev. I 09:45
09:45 taught myself to code and then was like, 09:47
09:47 you know, Sam, you're insane if you're 09:49
09:49 going to go through that learning curve 09:50
09:50 while also building the entire company 09:52
09:52 on top of that. 09:53
09:53 >> Design it and outsource it. So that's 09:55
09:55 what I did at the time. I still design 09:57
09:57 the product now. Um, and so with 09:59
09:59 spending, you know, a majority of the 10:02
10:02 cash that I had in the offshore dev. And 10:05
10:05 so then we had to get a little bit more 10:06
10:06 creative with the marketing side. You 10:09
10:09 know, I had I think I had $500 to 10:12
10:12 launch. not not much by any means. Paid 10:15
10:15 media is very scalable now, which is 10:17
10:17 great, but you know, it wasn't going to 10:19
10:19 get us very far. So, I really had to 10:21
10:21 kind of go hard with the organic side 10:23
10:23 and build that kind of social proofing 10:25
10:25 element of the business, which worked 10:27
10:27 really well. Um, and then, you know, get 10:29
10:29 some small moments of paid activity 10:33
10:33 through paid media, predominantly on 10:35
10:35 socials to kind of bolster that. Um, but 10:37
10:37 yeah, it was really that organic drive 10:39
10:39 initially. How long did it take you to 10:41
10:41 get the first 100 users? 10:43
10:43 >> Uh, so we given the nature of the 10:46
10:46 product, we kind of it's not like ecom 10:48
10:48 where you can just turn it on, it's 10:50
10:50 live, and just get a couple of kind of 10:52
10:52 orders ticking through because we're all 10:55
10:55 about offline connection. We needed to 10:58
10:58 actually have a certain number of users 11:01
11:01 already kind of on the wait list to be 11:03
11:03 able to launch. So, we'd had those 100 11:06
11:06 users before we went live. Yeah. 11:08
11:08 >> Um, we didn't start marketing until 11:10
11:10 maybe a week before we went live. So, in 11:12
11:12 terms of paid activity, um, so we'd had 11:15
11:15 that 11:17
11:17 probably within, you know, maybe the 11:19
11:19 first 2 weeks of actually going hard 11:23
11:23 with building the weight list. Up until 11:24
11:24 then, it was a little bit of a test and 11:26
11:26 learn with, you know, what type of 11:28
11:28 messaging is working, what type of 11:30
11:30 content is working, and we'd started to 11:33
11:33 build out that weight list from there. 11:35
11:35 But once we were actually like, "All 11:36
11:36 right, we're going live." It it honestly 11:38
11:38 didn't take long, which was which is 11:40
11:40 great and a great proof point to say 11:41
11:41 like, "Okay, maybe there is, you know, a 11:44
11:44 really strong need here." And how we're 11:45
11:45 talking about it is the right way. 11:47
11:47 You've mentioned that you've worked on 11:48
11:48 butter for a while now. So, when did you 11:52
11:52 have that, okay, like we're ready to 11:55
11:55 ship it moment? 11:56
11:56 >> And was that more of a call based on 11:59
11:59 metrics, user feedback, or just a gut 12:02
12:02 feeling that you know what, this is an 12:05
12:05 really good MVP already? 12:08
12:08 >> So, I mean, yeah, I was I suppose the 12:11
12:11 time that I was thinking about butter, 12:13
12:13 there was a really long leadup. I was 12:14
12:14 working full-time in corporate at the 12:16
12:16 time. So, it was kind of started as a 12:19
12:19 passion project and coming out of, you 12:21
12:21 know, the first time I'd thought about 12:24
12:24 something like this. I was like, "All 12:25
12:25 right, you need to kind of bank it a 12:26
12:26 little bit more before you go to 12:28
12:28 market." 12:29
12:29 >> And so, it very much was this thing that 12:31
12:31 I did for a couple of hours a week when 12:33
12:33 I had time. And so really once I started 12:37
12:37 working on it, I quit my job to start 12:38
12:38 freelancing to give myself 2 to three 12:41
12:41 days a week to work on butter and then 12:42
12:42 went full-time at the start of this 12:44
12:44 year. So really was probably about a 12:46
12:46 year um that we've a bit over a year 12:50
12:50 that we've been live now um that I've 12:52
12:52 that I've been working on it kind of as 12:54
12:54 an actual business. And um 12:57
12:57 I knew that 13:01
13:01 we kind of needed to get something into 13:03
13:03 market quickly. Having learned from my 13:05
13:05 previous experience, it I knew that I 13:08
13:08 wanted to ship quickly and iterate. It 13:10
13:10 didn't need to be this perfectly 13:12
13:12 polished finished product, which was a 13:14
13:14 very hard kind of understanding for me 13:16
13:16 to come to being a perfectionist. I was 13:18
13:18 like, but but it's not ready. It's like 13:20
13:20 we'll just get something out and kind of 13:22
13:22 prove the hypothesis of, you know, will 13:24
13:24 people post plans on the internet that 13:28
13:28 they want to do with strangers in 13:29
13:29 person? Like, let's just prove that 13:31
13:31 because if we're going to spend all this 13:32
13:32 money, that's the core product. And if 13:34
13:34 people don't want to do that, you know, 13:36
13:36 we need to rethink everything. And so, 13:37
13:37 we launched a MVP that I absolutely hate 13:41
13:41 now thinking about it, but at the time 13:43
13:43 it was a solid MVP. Um, we launched that 13:46
13:46 just to Melbourne, but just to the 13:48
13:48 soberish community within Melbourne. So, 13:50
13:50 that group of, you know, young mid20s 13:54
13:54 people who either were thinking about 13:56
13:56 not drinking or they'd recently stopped 13:58
13:58 drinking um and wanted to do kind of 14:01
14:01 things in their life that didn't revolve 14:02
14:02 around alcohol. 14:03
14:03 >> Yeah. 14:04
14:04 >> Which was very timely um last year when 14:06
14:06 we when we went to marker with that. So 14:09
14:09 I for me it was more of a gut feel 14:11
14:11 around all right that one core thing 14:15
14:15 that we needed to do create a plan post 14:17
14:17 a plan have that shown to the relevant 14:20
14:20 people to get guests to join the plan 14:23
14:23 does the app do that yes all right let's 14:25
14:25 get it to market see if see what the 14:28
14:28 sentiment is and how it performs and 14:30
14:30 then we can iterate from there so it was 14:31
14:31 definitely more of a gut feel and you 14:34
14:34 know I think a lot of founders can kind 14:37
14:37 of get really focused on making it this 14:39
14:39 perfect product. 14:41
14:41 >> Yeah. 14:41
14:41 >> But you can sink a lot of money into it. 14:43
14:43 You can sink a lot of time into it. And 14:45
14:45 so 14:46
14:46 >> figure out what that one single core 14:49
14:49 thing is that you're trying to prove, 14:51
14:51 shift that, and then iterate from there. 14:53
14:53 That's what we did. Super cool. And I'm 14:57
14:57 one thing I picked up slightly is that 14:58
14:58 like you seem to launch for a very 15:01
15:01 specific audience which is really 15:04
15:04 interesting as well because I think when 15:06
15:06 you think about this big problem 15:08
15:08 disconnection, you target so many 15:10
15:10 people. You end up like with a massive 15:12
15:12 market, right? But it really is so 15:14
15:14 important when you first launch to 15:16
15:16 figure out like who would be most 15:17
15:17 inclined to do this like immediately to 15:21
15:21 to be a really great testing ground to 15:23
15:23 prove the point of will people actually 15:25
15:25 post plans. 15:26
15:26 >> Yeah. 15:27
15:27 >> Um and they did so that's great 15:31
15:31 >> and okay so everyone so everyone always 15:35
15:35 talks about how much it sucks being kind 15:38
15:38 of the non-technical commercial founder 15:40
15:40 to flip the script a little bit. Why do 15:42
15:42 you actually think that this is your 15:44
15:44 superpower? 15:46
15:46 >> Interesting question. 15:49
15:49 >> Honestly, I mean 15:52
15:52 for this type of product, particularly B 15:54
15:54 TOC, it's a distribution game. For me, 15:56
15:56 coming in as a commercial founder, I 15:60
15:60 felt that I actually did have the upper 16:02
16:02 hand with my content background, with my 16:04
16:04 brand marketing background, that I could 16:05
16:05 go in and find the way that we actually 16:08
16:08 needed to deliver it, position it, build 16:10
16:10 the brand, and take it to market that 16:12
16:12 would work for this type of product. You 16:14
16:14 can build a product, but who's going to 16:15
16:15 use it if you can't see that out and get 16:17
16:17 people to hear about it? Yeah, this is 16:20
16:20 actually a very timely question because 16:22
16:22 this entire week I've been thinking a 16:23
16:23 lot about like what are the missing 16:25
16:25 skill sets in 2025 and there are a lot 16:29
16:29 of really great technical tools to help 16:31
16:31 you learn code very quickly, code and 16:34
16:34 and ship very quickly and even deploy 16:37
16:37 and test your software. And I think a 16:39
16:39 lot of people are building really 16:41
16:41 interesting infrastructure and things 16:42
16:42 like that, but there seems to be just a 16:45
16:45 lack of like, okay, like the market's so 16:47
16:47 competitive, so like where do I go in? 16:50
16:50 >> And 16:52
16:52 >> and it really takes a very special kind 16:54
16:54 of commercially minded person to figure 16:56
16:56 out like where's the entry into the 16:58
16:58 market? Like what what segment am I 16:59
16:59 going to uh carve my way through um 17:02
17:02 through all the noise? Um and I think 17:05
17:05 especially for something like this D TOC 17:07
17:07 being commercial and being brand 17:08
17:08 oriented and kind of doing a lot of the 17:10
17:10 product design work which is a very 17:12
17:12 fundamental portion of it is super 17:15
17:15 helpful. 17:16
17:16 >> Um so it is your superpower 17:20
17:20 >> and if you think about what's been the 17:23
17:23 most valuable lesson that you've learned 17:25
17:25 as a founder the one that you wish 17:27
17:27 someone had told you earlier in your 17:29
17:29 journey. I mean, I feel like we've 17:32
17:32 spoken about it now, but my answer was 17:34
17:34 going to be around 17:36
17:36 shipping and iterating. 17:38
17:38 >> Yeah. 17:38
17:38 >> Um, and also learning, like figure it 17:42
17:42 out. And I think particularly as 17:44
17:44 starting as a solo founder, 17:47
17:47 >> you're not going to have a lot of cash. 17:48
17:48 Things are more expensive than you think 17:50
17:50 they are. You need to be creative and, 17:53
17:53 you know, be able to have that hustle 17:56
17:56 and just learn and figure it out and 17:58
17:58 teach yourself. I taught myself to code. 17:60
17:60 I built the website myself. I designed 18:02
18:02 the product. I don't have a background 18:03
18:03 in tech, but I figured all of that out, 18:05
18:05 you know? I built the brand. I've 18:07
18:07 designed the logo. Like, I did all of 18:09
18:09 that myself. I think being scrappy is so 18:11
18:11 important. Um, and really just doing 18:15
18:15 absolutely everything that you can. 18:16
18:16 >> Yeah. 18:17
18:17 >> Um, okay. So, you're in your 30s now, so 18:21
18:21 you've seen the full chaos of like 18:23
18:23 20some friendships. If you could give 18:26
18:26 one piece of advice about making and 18:29
18:29 keeping friends, what would they be? 18:31
18:31 >> It really is an effort thing. Like it's 18:33
18:33 not an easy. A lot of people say like, 18:35
18:35 "Oh, I wish I had friends. I wish, you 18:36
18:36 know, I wish I had more of these types 18:38
18:38 of friends and XY Z." But they won't 18:41
18:41 actually take the steps to put in the 18:42
18:42 effort, put in the time, you know, um, 18:46
18:46 organize those catchups again, talk to 18:48
18:48 them on a deeper level. I think um I was 18:51
18:51 watching a Tik Tok last week on um 18:56
18:56 conversational chemistry. It's like 18:59
18:59 >> it's around how you know people can 19:01
19:01 actually um build a conversation, 19:04
19:04 connect with people more deeply than 19:06
19:06 just like fact collecting. Like I know 19:09
19:09 how old you are and what career you have 19:11
19:11 and where you live. Cool. That tells me 19:14
19:14 nothing about you essentially on on the 19:16
19:16 deeper level that you need to actually 19:17
19:17 build a friendship. And so being able to 19:19
19:19 structure a conversation in a way where 19:21
19:21 you can let the other person speak and 19:23
19:23 get more information out of them and 19:25
19:25 that's where you actually get to know 19:26
19:26 someone. But that takes effort and you 19:29
19:29 know a concerted effort and I think a 19:31
19:31 lot of people maybe just want the 19:34
19:34 friends without necessarily wanting to 19:36
19:36 put the effort in. 19:38
19:38 >> Um and I think that's that's probably 19:40
19:40 one thing particularly as you get into 19:42
19:42 your 20s where everyone starts to go on 19:44
19:44 their different path. People get into 19:46
19:46 relationships, you're not in one. People 19:48
19:48 relocate, you don't. Like, it's a lot 19:50
19:50 harder to maintain that connection. And 19:51
19:51 I think you need that concerted effort 19:53
19:53 to constantly check in and, you know, 19:57
19:57 touch base and organize that catch up 19:59
19:59 and, you know, stay in touch and wish 20:01
20:01 them well for whatever thing they're 20:03
20:03 doing. And that's how you maintain that 20:04
20:04 over time. Okay. On the other side of 20:08
20:08 connections and relationships, so what 20:10
20:10 about one piece of advice about choosing 20:12
20:12 the right partner for the long haul? 20:16
20:16 I have the best partner ever. So, this 20:18
20:18 is this is a good one for me. 20:20
20:20 >> So, so you can say it. 20:21
20:21 >> Yeah. 20:21
20:21 >> So, so you have the best advice. Okay, 20:23
20:23 great. 20:24
20:24 >> I No, I was single for five six years. A 20:29
20:29 decent amount of time kind of in between 20:31
20:31 my last relationship and and this one. 20:34
20:34 And I honestly make a list of your 20:38
20:38 non-negotiables. 20:40
20:40 M 20:40
20:40 >> it sounds strange, but I had gotten to 20:45
20:45 the point where, you know, I was going 20:46
20:46 on dates and I would instantly kind of 20:48
20:48 know 20:50
20:50 >> they're not my kind of person. I'm not 20:52
20:52 into them for these reasons. And I was 20:54
20:54 like, okay, well, 20:56
20:56 >> like, what does that actually mean? And 20:57
20:57 putting it down on paper, I ended up 20:59
20:59 having a list of eight things. And it's 21:01
21:01 not like, you know, it shouldn't be a 21:03
21:03 list like they're tall and, you know, 21:06
21:06 they're attractive, like cool, that 21:08
21:08 means nothing. like on a valuesdriven 21:11
21:11 level and on you know think about the 21:13
21:13 life you want to have what type of 21:14
21:14 partner will 21:16
21:16 >> fit into that life create the list based 21:19
21:19 on that. So I had a list of eight things 21:21
21:21 and I'm actually not kidding I wrote 21:23
21:23 that list in my notes out and 2 weeks 21:25
21:25 later matched with my now fiancé on 21:28
21:28 Hinge. Um and instantly after that first 21:31
21:31 date I was like yep done sold tick 21:35
21:35 everything. Tick tick tick tick tick. I 21:37
21:37 didn't find that list until maybe 6 21:39
21:39 months into when we started dating and I 21:42
21:42 looked at it and I was like, "Oh my god, 21:44
21:44 that is my partner." And I showed him 21:46
21:46 and he was like, "Yeah, that's that's me 21:48
21:48 to a tea." But it took me, you know, 21:51
21:51 going on all of the dates and meeting a 21:55
21:55 lot of different types of people as 21:56
21:56 well. I think that's one of the thing 21:57
21:57 people can get very set into the type of 21:60
21:60 person that they think they want to 22:01
22:01 date. It's like, okay, well, you haven't 22:03
22:03 met, you know, you're kind of dating 22:06
22:06 this, you know, corporate, you know, 22:08
22:08 more serious guy. You haven't met the 22:10
22:10 creative, you haven't met, you know, the 22:12
22:12 XY Z. You need to be able to experience 22:15
22:15 that to then know for sure the type that 22:17
22:17 you want. Um, so do that. Write the list 22:22
22:22 and stick stick to the list. You know, 22:24
22:24 this is like some Tik Tok manifestation 22:26
22:26 stuff. 22:27
22:27 >> I know. And I hate that people are like, 22:29
22:29 "Oh my god, manifestation." But it I 22:32
22:32 think it's more just clarity and being 22:34
22:34 able to like 22:35
22:35 >> articulate what it is that you want. And 22:37
22:37 I think it takes a while to get there. 22:39
22:39 You can't kind of go in, you know, the 22:40
22:40 second you're single and it's like this 22:42
22:42 is the type of person that I want and 22:43
22:43 this is the this is what I'm looking 22:45
22:45 for. It it takes time to understand 22:46
22:46 that. It takes meeting people to 22:48
22:48 understand that. So where do you see 22:50
22:50 butter fitting into people's lives in 22:52
22:52 the long run? 22:53
22:53 >> We we have massive goals and massive 22:57
22:57 vision. So we want to create the world 22:59
22:59 where every in-person interaction is 23:01
23:01 built on but no matter where you went or 23:03
23:03 the things that you did, you would 23:05
23:05 always be able to find that community 23:06
23:06 that you wanted. Like if you thought 23:08
23:08 about that for a second, what would you 23:11
23:11 do in your life? You'd move cities more. 23:12
23:12 You'd take that job. You'd try that new 23:14
23:14 thing. You'd meet that new person 23:16
23:16 because you know that you would always 23:18
23:18 have this foundation of this community 23:20
23:20 and these friends that you could always 23:23
23:23 have wherever you went. And I think 23:24
23:24 that's the unlock that we want to build, 23:28
23:28 actually be that lifestyle destination 23:30
23:30 for anyone at any point in their life to 23:34
23:34 be able to build that community and 23:36
23:36 create the life that they want um and 23:38
23:38 invent themselves as our as our tagline 23:40
23:40 says. We're powering that offline 23:43
23:43 internet and I think now it is really 23:45
23:45 timely a very timely topic with AI and 23:49
23:49 you know the shift in postco and how we 23:52
23:52 want to connect and Gen Z actively 23:55
23:55 rejecting the doom scroll and wanting 23:57
23:57 you know seeking those kind of 23:59
23:59 pre-digital experiences. So the time 24:01
24:01 really is ripe now um and we want to be 24:05
24:05 that kind of that infra that that powers 24:07
24:07 that for everyone everywhere. 24:10
24:10 I really enjoy the vision. Um I think 24:12
24:12 that's very beautiful and 24:15
24:15 digital connections can never really 24:17
24:17 replace um being with someone physically 24:21
24:21 doing an experience that you both enjoy. 24:24
24:24 And I also think moving around in your 24:26
24:26 20s and your 30s, even later, you every 24:29
24:29 time you move around, you get to invent 24:31
24:31 yourself. And that is something that not 24:33
24:33 a lot of people talk about, but I've 24:35
24:35 personally found in my experience to be 24:37
24:37 really rewarding. Um, and I hope with 24:40
24:40 butter everyone feels a bit more 24:42
24:42 empowered to do that. Um, and that's an 24:46
24:46 incredible mission and a goal. Okay, 24:48
24:48 Sam. Um, I really enjoy our conversation 24:51
24:51 and thank you for coming on Founders 24:53
24:53 Emotion. 24:54
24:54 >> Thanks for having me. 24:55
24:55 >> That's a wrap. If you like this episode, 24:57
24:57 please hit the subscribe button. It 24:59
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25:06 [Music]